Seite Diskussion:Die Heimath in der neuen Welt, Dritter Band.djvu/195

Translation

The last sentence in the first paragraph is "Man sagt, daß die Neger einander selbst unter der Folterqual der Peitsche niemals verrathen." In my understanding, the English translation of this German is "The negroes, it is said, never betray one another even under the torture of the whip," but the book's English translation renders the Swedish ("Negrerna sägas aldrig förråda hvarandra utom under piskans tortyr.") as "The negroes, it is said, never betray one another except under the torture of the whip." The latter meaning also seems to appear in the book's French translation, and Google translate renders the Swedish as "The Negroes are never said to betray each other except during the torture of the whip." Is my understanding of the German faulty, or is the German book's translation the problem? If the book's translation is the problem, is there another word I can substitute (with an appropriate note) that will fix the problem? Thanks for any help people can give me on this matter, and please excuse my reversion to English. Bob Burkhardt (Diskussion) 12:18, 1. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Ach ja, man muss mit Google sprechen, "außer" Anstatt von "selbst." Bob Burkhardt (Diskussion) 12:24, 2. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Hello, Bob Burkhardt. The chosen variant is ok now, if you consider the original as untouchable ... I would however so much more expect Bremer to tell us that they wouldn't betray their brothers, even when tortured, that I have doubts whether the oriniginal text is the original thought ... --Maasikaru (Diskussion) 19:32, 27. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Maasikaru: The only reason I challenged it was the English and French translations use "except when tortured" and then Google likewise when I put it to work on the Swedish. Bremer is just reporting what she hears, and she seems to have the integrity to do that even when it doesn't meet her expectations. Perhaps it is not true, but my concern is to have an accurate translation as much as an accurate transcription. I look upon it as correcting a "typo" in the original. Recently I also took out some letter spacing (SperrSchrift) that reflected no corresponding emphasis (italics or quotes or whatever) in the original Swedish, and previously I have corrected the number of boats out rescuing people in the ocean, and also "melancholisch" used where "melodisch" would be more appropriate. I think the reader is more interested in what Bremer actually wrote than in what the translator said she wrote when there is a difference between the two, and the reader deserves to be alerted about such significant discrepancies which we have the resources to detect here, or at least I do since I am doing the French and German transcriptions simultaneously. I would like the German transcription to provide this service. I am doing this in French as well in other situations. I find it easier to be transparent in German with the footnote explanations; in French I put a note in the Zusammenfassung for the edit which certainly isn't as available to the reader. Thank you for your attention to this. I admit that correcting the translation is kind of taking things a step beyond the usual, but I think this makes the end result more of interest. Bob Burkhardt (Diskussion) 21:52, 27. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Hello, Bob Burkhardt. Thank you for explaining. I didn't have the intention to revise your decision. The sentence is still strange after "aldrig förråda" (twice). But again: ok, good job. --Maasikaru (Diskussion) 09:39, 28. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Maasikaru. I am not sure I understand what you are saying. The whole chapter is culturally loaded, and it is exceptionally important to be accurate here. On reinspection, I realize I am not completely comfortable with Google's translation into English as a confirmation of Mary Howitt's English translation. If Google said "said never" instead of "never said" I would be more comfortable, but I just attribute the difference to the vagaries of a mechanical translation. I was thinking you were just expecting Bremer to speak of the Negroes as if they were the old aboriginals of the North American plains, but it appears you are commenting on the Swedish which is way beyond me, and I am rapidly getting bogged down in cultural stereotypes. Bob Burkhardt (Diskussion) 14:02, 28. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Hi Bob. My interpretation is not based on cultural stereotypes, at least I hope not ... I simply read a text, that in Swedish contains "aldrig förråda" (twice). [I checked the Swedish version since the German version was only fine for me in Finks translation]. In German you have "die an ihnen niemals zu Verräthern werden" in the first sentence and another "niemals verraten" in the second. In my personal language processing center :-> "niemals" is "never" is "never ever" and that collides with a meaning "never, well not unless you use torture". That people break under torture is a fact hardly worth mentioning. And that's why I had the audacity to challenge the original Swedish text. There might have gone something wrong between Fredrika's handwritten diaries and the printed edition. But you are right, the printed Swedish version is there as it is, containg "utom" [I didn't find any other use than "ausser"], French and English version follow that, the German translation does not; this can be sufficiently adressed with footnote. Sorry for bringing my doubts up. Interpretation is not our job. --Maasikaru (Diskussion) 19:04, 28. Nov. 2021 (CET)